Been following you for years, Dave, and I absolutely love this. Easily could become a book for fathers to give to their young sons.
I would like to add another idea: train your perspective to be one of abundance. This will teach your kids (by way of modeling, the lowest investment and highest ROI parenting method) that there is always a way through, a way to see a situation as positive or as a path to improvement. Show your family that your strength is not just for when it’s “easy” to be strong. A man can change the course of someone’s life simply by focusing his energy on a healthy abundant perspective.
"A lot of people say money. But that's not exactly true. Women want leadership. Specifically, they want to be led to a vision of the future that they believe is good. They want a plan. And you need to be the man with the plan. Maybe you aren’t there initially, but you need to slowly strive to be a man with vision and competence, and the more real this process is, the better."
This is the biggest thing, around which all of the others revolve and are built off of. You build a dream for where you're going, and your future wife has to have a place in it. To see where she fits in it. Then you go out, and present that dream in your daily life. You pursue it in your job, your hobbies, in which friends you make and keep.
If you're false to your dream, it'll show. You'll be depressed, drink too much, have less energy, play too much video games, not spend time or money as you ought, not have the comradery you ought, etc.
As far as how you comport yourself; the biggest thing I changed about my mental attitude before I was married was I began thinking about myself as already a head of household. That changes how you interact with other men in a Church, and who. You stop spending all your time with the youth, the 18-25 year olds. Definitely not as much with those younger than that. You start setting up and being a part of men's groups at Churches, Young Adults (18-35) groups, getting to know fathers so you know how the daughters will have been raised, gain their respects and thus some of the respect of the whole Church. Stuff like that.
A fun way, if someone wants to do something physical that can also involve the woman, is to learn dancing. Most cities will have cheap dancing venues, 5-10 dollars a night with decent music. I prefer swing dancing, as it's the easiest to learn, but also has a high expert range to grow into. It will help you meet women, get experience talking and interacting with women, experience leading women, and teaching women. It's something where you can invite women from outside the venue and, if you go there regularly, you'll have social proof because people will know you.
Men display, women choose. It's the opposite of what most people will tell you, but it's the reality. You might chose to approach the woman, but what you're actually doing is displaying yourself - she gets to choose. Ace of Spades is the best teacher from the old Manosphere days. I wish he'd start writing again - his old blog was 80 proof oinomancy. I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.
Finally, just go out there and get it done. No advice from any of us will do any good if you don't put boots on the ground, and learn what works for you. You're the one putting yourself out there. You have no excuses at the end of the day that anyone will care about. History won't care, people will get tired of your whining, so get over it.
I was going to come in here to suggest dancing as well. I took up Latin/ballroom last year, and aside from coming to faith it has been the best thing I have done. It helps with a cluster of the points in this article (especially if you start competing), plus lets you interact socially with a varied group and get used to non-sexual contact with the opposite sex. Not to mention, there are a lot of insights to be gleaned in intersexual dynamics directly through the dancing itself
And, the best part with building the life you want - even if you never find the woman to accompany you, you still end up with a beautiful life filled with passion, friends, and meaning
Agreed. It helps with a ton of social dynamics across the board, and introducing you to people you'd never meet otherwise is a huge bonus. Like you, I can't understate how much good it did while searching for a wife.
I’m a bit younger than you and got married in 2022 without using dating apps and met my wife as a regular at the restaurant she was a barista at.
A little tip I would add (that ties a bit into error 3) is that it is possible to jerry-rig a third space. I was a regular at a cafe across the street from my job. I went there several days per week on my lunch break, enough that I even got to know the kitchen staff. I liked being recognized and it was fun to talk games with my new buddies.
Fast forward a year or so and a new girl starts (my now wife). We have a few friendly interactions and I decide I want to ask her out. I was able to text one of those buddies who was all too happy to invite us both somewhere that wasn’t where they worked. It worked out.
All that to say: being consistently at a spot is often enough to start being recognized and that recognition can pay dividends sometime in the future. I got made fun of by my co-workers for going to the same place, little did they know I was better plugged into a community THEY lived in despite commuting an hour to work.
It isn’t as good or as easy as having a widely accepted meeting place like our parents did, but going to different places on a routine eventually organically creates a bond with someone. It probably won’t lead to girlfriend right away, but man at least you could end up some good bros while you’re looking for a lady.
EDIT: I really don’t want to sound unsympathetic to the Zoomer plight. I was there and feeling helpless too before all that. I wanted to share a concrete action that helped me.
This is something I always hit on when mentoring. We are a social species, if you show up at the same place (Church, Gym, Hobby, etc), the same time on the same day every week you WILL make friends.
Need to finish reading the article but oh my word I'm so glad you mentioned sports. I didn't bother with them as a kid and it took getting to my late 20s to see just how important they are. I didn't have adult men in my life as a kid and the adults I did have thought sports were dangerous, for stupid people, etc. I was going to be doing something "important" while the jocks would be flipping burgers in their 30s. You know the meme.
I learned how wrong I was when I was 29 and invited to a friend's hall-of-fame induction for a sports association in my state. He and his other compatriots shared stories of the bonds they forged, the hard life lessons learned, the love(s) of their lives they met because of that sport. Women they're all still with to this day. Stories from back in their physical prime that even decades later rippled out to affect and influence their lives to that moment. These were people in their 60s and 70s—all well accomplished too I might add (turns out sports aren't just for idiots.)
So many benefits to sports! Physical fitness, life-long bonds, learning to work with others, the glory of victory and the pain of defeat that steels your resolve to do better the next day all the while gracefully accepting you're not the best. Things that seem obvious if someone so much as spent a few months playing, but aren't if you didn't have that background. All valuable lessons that enrich every aspect of your life and prepare you for the trials of day-to-day life, let alone finding a spouse.
It is absolutely vital every man have a sport! I missed out in my youth but "the next best time is now," as they say. Now that I'm in my early 30s I've finally entered the wide world of sports by taking up golf but plan to try others too. It's never too late to start something! Play a sport, and for the love of God make sure your kids play a sport. They have so much to gain if they do, and well too much to lose if they don't!
At the risk of getting all Vox Day on you, the importance of male friends is really to establish where you are in a heirarchy. Women will judge you based on how you are respected in a group, but they will judge you better by how you are treated by a group of other men. Do they listen when you speak? Is your opinion respected? Do they tell stories about you? Do they laugh at your jokes?
Any decently functional friend group will accomplish this task. If you are insufferable then they'll never call you to hang out anyway, so merely being invited in regularly is a sign of status. Yoi can be the lowest-status man in a group of men, but if the other men want you there, you are head-and-shoulders better off than the guy with no friend group at all. "Can other men stand him?" is a pretty good proxy for whether or not you are even slightly tolerable to be around.
1. When first meeting a woman, it greatly enhances your chances as being perceived in positive and potentially attractive light if you are with another woman, of about your age and attractive and intelligent. It seems to pre-qualify you as being worthy of female attention due to the fact that an attractive woman is with you of her own accord.
In a sense, it's more evidence that wealth attracts wealth...
2. If you are comfortable in the presence of children and seem to take even a passing interest in talking to them, any eligible females are likely to take positive note.
3. Own a dog, or other such traditionally masculine pet. There are few, so dogs are best. Relate well to the dog in the presence of a woman of interest. You shouldn't have to fake it, either.
Nothing to disagree with here. Excellent article. But as an athletic, decent looking, tall guy, I can add that it really, really helps to be athletic, decent looking, and over 6’4”. Guys who have these traits will get girls even if they lack other positive qualities.
But whether ye a dwarf or a stud be, follow Uncle Dave’s advice.
This is interesting but I would like to respectfully add my own perspective after writing something up, there is something here which I feel is missing and which is upstream of many of the issues you list here.
Really sound advice. I have teenage children and I don’t envy them one bit the prospect of having to navigate the world to find a partner at some point. I think the anti-women sentiment that prevails in parts of the online community doesn’t help. Feminism has poisoned the well for men, women and children for sure. But whining - and failing to acknowledge that some men had a role in enabling feminism in the first place - just comes across as weak. We are where we are. It’s what we do about it going forward that matters. High value women, the type of women most men would seek, want to be able to look up to a man and respect him enough to be led by him. Good women don’t follow weakness.
Another commentator, Knowland Knows, focuses on how men can work on their masculinity to help them in life in general. I’d recommend his Substack to anyone seeking further reading on this.
It’s pretty important that men and women find a way to be together. Being a good husband, a good wife and a good parent should be an achievable goal for most people.
As a Zoomer who got married at 24 and now has one kid and another coming, the turning point in my life was getting so irritated at the culture I made a YouTube channel and started posting to it repeatedly.
It got me a large friends group, it grew my ability to be convincing and to talk in interviews, it got me a decent amount of money, and then finally gave me the community to find a decent woman and marry her.
I'd also add, as well, that being a wagie can actually seriously damage your ability to pull this off, and being a NEET or a student and just doing this can pay massive dividends
Loved this, Dave. My husband is a builder and a dreamer. He has a construction business and a dream of owning land that we can cultivate, along with a few animals. He includes me in his vision of the future and I (mostly) like the role he envisions for me. But it is a peaceful and content life we strive for, with God at the pinnacle, my husband leading, and myself a loving helpmate and object of my husband's desire and affection. A young man's ambitions don't need to be grand necessarily, just clear. A quality woman will follow a quality man into a simple, quiet, life as long as he is capable and creative. My husband changed our flat tire last night, out on a dark country road, in below freezing weather, while I sat in the car with the heater cranked. He is my hero.
Something you might add to the list is the ambition to be a good husband and father. Not merely a husband and father, but a *good* one. A lot of young men talk about finding a woman like one might talk about getting an xbox—as something fun to do. You spoke of the cultural default of getting married and having kids, but this was part of the cultural default of working hard and not being very concerned with one's own amusement. Before retirement, Boomer men worked hard and rarely played games. They were supposed to work hard for their family and community; there's a reason why the "long hairs" who wanted to have fun and enjoy life were so incredibly despised. I'm not saying that culture was good—frankly, I think that the civic religion the boomers grew up with was a terrible religion and its passing from the world is an improvement. But it needs to be replaced with good religion, not with no religion. Life is hard, and painful, and then you die. That's always been the case and always will be the case. If a man can't articulate what he is willing to suffer for and why, he won't avoid suffering, he'll just get nothing good out of it.
Yeah that’s a tough tell to young guys these days. Sargon said that online yesterday and all the Zoomers got furious saying “HOW CAN YOU CHIDE US ABOUT NOT WANTING TO BE FATHERS WHEN WE CAN’T GET A DATE!”
I wonder if they face the same problem in job hunting—”Why study to be good at a job when I can’t even get an interview?” I wonder if they need parental figures to explain that life is not like a video game—you don’t start doing it then develop basic competence. IRL, you need to prepare yourself for a long time before you start trying; you have to git gud before anyone will pick you to work with. As a father, one of the pernicious things I’ve noticed about video games is that the thing which makes them excellent at relaxation—accelerated rewards for effort—can condition a kid to not be willing to put the work into real accomplishments because the real-life pace of reward for effort is so much slower. (Plus kids can become accustomed to more stimulation than will happen during IRL worthwhile activities.)
I really appreciate this post. And especially the tone. It's never belligerent or presumptuous. For the most part it's also actuable advice. It's often easy to fall into impotent doomerism in regards to dating, especially if one has not been very or at all successful. I believe following the advice you've outlined here would at least prevent that, not least because it transforms you into a more complete and multi-facetted man, whether romantic success "waits" at the end or rather along the way or not. At least this has been my experience while I've consciously and subconsciously worked (and still do) on one or two issues mentioned here.
I also feel like there's a noticable difference between those men who, if they could only participate, would gladly join today's hedonism-centric dating culture and those whose ambitions lie more on the side of family, heritage and community. I'm quite sure the latter will be more receptive to the advice. But it's also a deeper tragedy if nothing comes to pass (for the individual and the community). Especially when tackling the problem of how to deal with those who tried but will ultimately fail (which seems unavoidable given that not every variable is under one's own influence).
Been following you for years, Dave, and I absolutely love this. Easily could become a book for fathers to give to their young sons.
I would like to add another idea: train your perspective to be one of abundance. This will teach your kids (by way of modeling, the lowest investment and highest ROI parenting method) that there is always a way through, a way to see a situation as positive or as a path to improvement. Show your family that your strength is not just for when it’s “easy” to be strong. A man can change the course of someone’s life simply by focusing his energy on a healthy abundant perspective.
Thanks man, glad you enjoyed it.
"A lot of people say money. But that's not exactly true. Women want leadership. Specifically, they want to be led to a vision of the future that they believe is good. They want a plan. And you need to be the man with the plan. Maybe you aren’t there initially, but you need to slowly strive to be a man with vision and competence, and the more real this process is, the better."
This is the biggest thing, around which all of the others revolve and are built off of. You build a dream for where you're going, and your future wife has to have a place in it. To see where she fits in it. Then you go out, and present that dream in your daily life. You pursue it in your job, your hobbies, in which friends you make and keep.
If you're false to your dream, it'll show. You'll be depressed, drink too much, have less energy, play too much video games, not spend time or money as you ought, not have the comradery you ought, etc.
As far as how you comport yourself; the biggest thing I changed about my mental attitude before I was married was I began thinking about myself as already a head of household. That changes how you interact with other men in a Church, and who. You stop spending all your time with the youth, the 18-25 year olds. Definitely not as much with those younger than that. You start setting up and being a part of men's groups at Churches, Young Adults (18-35) groups, getting to know fathers so you know how the daughters will have been raised, gain their respects and thus some of the respect of the whole Church. Stuff like that.
A fun way, if someone wants to do something physical that can also involve the woman, is to learn dancing. Most cities will have cheap dancing venues, 5-10 dollars a night with decent music. I prefer swing dancing, as it's the easiest to learn, but also has a high expert range to grow into. It will help you meet women, get experience talking and interacting with women, experience leading women, and teaching women. It's something where you can invite women from outside the venue and, if you go there regularly, you'll have social proof because people will know you.
Men display, women choose. It's the opposite of what most people will tell you, but it's the reality. You might chose to approach the woman, but what you're actually doing is displaying yourself - she gets to choose. Ace of Spades is the best teacher from the old Manosphere days. I wish he'd start writing again - his old blog was 80 proof oinomancy. I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.
Finally, just go out there and get it done. No advice from any of us will do any good if you don't put boots on the ground, and learn what works for you. You're the one putting yourself out there. You have no excuses at the end of the day that anyone will care about. History won't care, people will get tired of your whining, so get over it.
That's what men do.
I was going to come in here to suggest dancing as well. I took up Latin/ballroom last year, and aside from coming to faith it has been the best thing I have done. It helps with a cluster of the points in this article (especially if you start competing), plus lets you interact socially with a varied group and get used to non-sexual contact with the opposite sex. Not to mention, there are a lot of insights to be gleaned in intersexual dynamics directly through the dancing itself
And, the best part with building the life you want - even if you never find the woman to accompany you, you still end up with a beautiful life filled with passion, friends, and meaning
Agreed. It helps with a ton of social dynamics across the board, and introducing you to people you'd never meet otherwise is a huge bonus. Like you, I can't understate how much good it did while searching for a wife.
I’m a bit younger than you and got married in 2022 without using dating apps and met my wife as a regular at the restaurant she was a barista at.
A little tip I would add (that ties a bit into error 3) is that it is possible to jerry-rig a third space. I was a regular at a cafe across the street from my job. I went there several days per week on my lunch break, enough that I even got to know the kitchen staff. I liked being recognized and it was fun to talk games with my new buddies.
Fast forward a year or so and a new girl starts (my now wife). We have a few friendly interactions and I decide I want to ask her out. I was able to text one of those buddies who was all too happy to invite us both somewhere that wasn’t where they worked. It worked out.
All that to say: being consistently at a spot is often enough to start being recognized and that recognition can pay dividends sometime in the future. I got made fun of by my co-workers for going to the same place, little did they know I was better plugged into a community THEY lived in despite commuting an hour to work.
It isn’t as good or as easy as having a widely accepted meeting place like our parents did, but going to different places on a routine eventually organically creates a bond with someone. It probably won’t lead to girlfriend right away, but man at least you could end up some good bros while you’re looking for a lady.
EDIT: I really don’t want to sound unsympathetic to the Zoomer plight. I was there and feeling helpless too before all that. I wanted to share a concrete action that helped me.
This is something I always hit on when mentoring. We are a social species, if you show up at the same place (Church, Gym, Hobby, etc), the same time on the same day every week you WILL make friends.
Need to finish reading the article but oh my word I'm so glad you mentioned sports. I didn't bother with them as a kid and it took getting to my late 20s to see just how important they are. I didn't have adult men in my life as a kid and the adults I did have thought sports were dangerous, for stupid people, etc. I was going to be doing something "important" while the jocks would be flipping burgers in their 30s. You know the meme.
I learned how wrong I was when I was 29 and invited to a friend's hall-of-fame induction for a sports association in my state. He and his other compatriots shared stories of the bonds they forged, the hard life lessons learned, the love(s) of their lives they met because of that sport. Women they're all still with to this day. Stories from back in their physical prime that even decades later rippled out to affect and influence their lives to that moment. These were people in their 60s and 70s—all well accomplished too I might add (turns out sports aren't just for idiots.)
So many benefits to sports! Physical fitness, life-long bonds, learning to work with others, the glory of victory and the pain of defeat that steels your resolve to do better the next day all the while gracefully accepting you're not the best. Things that seem obvious if someone so much as spent a few months playing, but aren't if you didn't have that background. All valuable lessons that enrich every aspect of your life and prepare you for the trials of day-to-day life, let alone finding a spouse.
It is absolutely vital every man have a sport! I missed out in my youth but "the next best time is now," as they say. Now that I'm in my early 30s I've finally entered the wide world of sports by taking up golf but plan to try others too. It's never too late to start something! Play a sport, and for the love of God make sure your kids play a sport. They have so much to gain if they do, and well too much to lose if they don't!
Rock climbing is a sport that's at once collaborative and competitive. Changed me for the better in many of the ways described here.
At the risk of getting all Vox Day on you, the importance of male friends is really to establish where you are in a heirarchy. Women will judge you based on how you are respected in a group, but they will judge you better by how you are treated by a group of other men. Do they listen when you speak? Is your opinion respected? Do they tell stories about you? Do they laugh at your jokes?
Any decently functional friend group will accomplish this task. If you are insufferable then they'll never call you to hang out anyway, so merely being invited in regularly is a sign of status. Yoi can be the lowest-status man in a group of men, but if the other men want you there, you are head-and-shoulders better off than the guy with no friend group at all. "Can other men stand him?" is a pretty good proxy for whether or not you are even slightly tolerable to be around.
1. When first meeting a woman, it greatly enhances your chances as being perceived in positive and potentially attractive light if you are with another woman, of about your age and attractive and intelligent. It seems to pre-qualify you as being worthy of female attention due to the fact that an attractive woman is with you of her own accord.
In a sense, it's more evidence that wealth attracts wealth...
2. If you are comfortable in the presence of children and seem to take even a passing interest in talking to them, any eligible females are likely to take positive note.
3. Own a dog, or other such traditionally masculine pet. There are few, so dogs are best. Relate well to the dog in the presence of a woman of interest. You shouldn't have to fake it, either.
The wrong choice of pets here can undermine you.
Nothing to disagree with here. Excellent article. But as an athletic, decent looking, tall guy, I can add that it really, really helps to be athletic, decent looking, and over 6’4”. Guys who have these traits will get girls even if they lack other positive qualities.
But whether ye a dwarf or a stud be, follow Uncle Dave’s advice.
This is interesting but I would like to respectfully add my own perspective after writing something up, there is something here which I feel is missing and which is upstream of many of the issues you list here.
Need to fix error 2 and 5.
Really sound advice. I have teenage children and I don’t envy them one bit the prospect of having to navigate the world to find a partner at some point. I think the anti-women sentiment that prevails in parts of the online community doesn’t help. Feminism has poisoned the well for men, women and children for sure. But whining - and failing to acknowledge that some men had a role in enabling feminism in the first place - just comes across as weak. We are where we are. It’s what we do about it going forward that matters. High value women, the type of women most men would seek, want to be able to look up to a man and respect him enough to be led by him. Good women don’t follow weakness.
Another commentator, Knowland Knows, focuses on how men can work on their masculinity to help them in life in general. I’d recommend his Substack to anyone seeking further reading on this.
It’s pretty important that men and women find a way to be together. Being a good husband, a good wife and a good parent should be an achievable goal for most people.
As a Zoomer who got married at 24 and now has one kid and another coming, the turning point in my life was getting so irritated at the culture I made a YouTube channel and started posting to it repeatedly.
It got me a large friends group, it grew my ability to be convincing and to talk in interviews, it got me a decent amount of money, and then finally gave me the community to find a decent woman and marry her.
I'd also add, as well, that being a wagie can actually seriously damage your ability to pull this off, and being a NEET or a student and just doing this can pay massive dividends
Loved this, Dave. My husband is a builder and a dreamer. He has a construction business and a dream of owning land that we can cultivate, along with a few animals. He includes me in his vision of the future and I (mostly) like the role he envisions for me. But it is a peaceful and content life we strive for, with God at the pinnacle, my husband leading, and myself a loving helpmate and object of my husband's desire and affection. A young man's ambitions don't need to be grand necessarily, just clear. A quality woman will follow a quality man into a simple, quiet, life as long as he is capable and creative. My husband changed our flat tire last night, out on a dark country road, in below freezing weather, while I sat in the car with the heater cranked. He is my hero.
Something you might add to the list is the ambition to be a good husband and father. Not merely a husband and father, but a *good* one. A lot of young men talk about finding a woman like one might talk about getting an xbox—as something fun to do. You spoke of the cultural default of getting married and having kids, but this was part of the cultural default of working hard and not being very concerned with one's own amusement. Before retirement, Boomer men worked hard and rarely played games. They were supposed to work hard for their family and community; there's a reason why the "long hairs" who wanted to have fun and enjoy life were so incredibly despised. I'm not saying that culture was good—frankly, I think that the civic religion the boomers grew up with was a terrible religion and its passing from the world is an improvement. But it needs to be replaced with good religion, not with no religion. Life is hard, and painful, and then you die. That's always been the case and always will be the case. If a man can't articulate what he is willing to suffer for and why, he won't avoid suffering, he'll just get nothing good out of it.
Yeah that’s a tough tell to young guys these days. Sargon said that online yesterday and all the Zoomers got furious saying “HOW CAN YOU CHIDE US ABOUT NOT WANTING TO BE FATHERS WHEN WE CAN’T GET A DATE!”
I wonder if they face the same problem in job hunting—”Why study to be good at a job when I can’t even get an interview?” I wonder if they need parental figures to explain that life is not like a video game—you don’t start doing it then develop basic competence. IRL, you need to prepare yourself for a long time before you start trying; you have to git gud before anyone will pick you to work with. As a father, one of the pernicious things I’ve noticed about video games is that the thing which makes them excellent at relaxation—accelerated rewards for effort—can condition a kid to not be willing to put the work into real accomplishments because the real-life pace of reward for effort is so much slower. (Plus kids can become accustomed to more stimulation than will happen during IRL worthwhile activities.)
Dating apps are designed to maximize engagement: to keep its users single.
(Except for a few specific apps like the Catholic dating sites…)
Long term it would be great to build up those social institutions again.
Sports and irl events are essential.
I really appreciate this post. And especially the tone. It's never belligerent or presumptuous. For the most part it's also actuable advice. It's often easy to fall into impotent doomerism in regards to dating, especially if one has not been very or at all successful. I believe following the advice you've outlined here would at least prevent that, not least because it transforms you into a more complete and multi-facetted man, whether romantic success "waits" at the end or rather along the way or not. At least this has been my experience while I've consciously and subconsciously worked (and still do) on one or two issues mentioned here.
I also feel like there's a noticable difference between those men who, if they could only participate, would gladly join today's hedonism-centric dating culture and those whose ambitions lie more on the side of family, heritage and community. I'm quite sure the latter will be more receptive to the advice. But it's also a deeper tragedy if nothing comes to pass (for the individual and the community). Especially when tackling the problem of how to deal with those who tried but will ultimately fail (which seems unavoidable given that not every variable is under one's own influence).