Been a while since I read it, but the modern progressive reminds me of Hazel Motes in WiseBlood with his "Holy Church of Christ Without Christ,". You see this with Harry Potter, who love all the trappings of historical Britain while simultaneously wanting to tear it all down. It's like arguing a person will be more complete once we rip his pesky heart out of his body.
Great post and great to have you back Dave, hope all well. Summarises both Harry Potter and where we are in discourse with the left right now extremely well
With the exception of midwit libs and suburbanites, the public is losing faith in authority and institutions. So when your Professor resorts to arguments from authority he is remodeling a house on a foundation already destroyed.
Thank you for the post. My wife is a Harry Potter fan and it's sometikes important to serve these arguments in a way that's palatable to normie millenials.
"the imperative of love. Here, I don’t just mean love for each other and our families, but love for higher things, chief among them Truth, the virtue of sincere curiosity"
Is this conclusion not an endorsement of the Rowling perspective? Is it substantially different than "love conquers all?" HP is a woo-woo Boomer-ish take on Christianity with evil conceived of as Promethean ambition (immortality & absolute dominion). Rowling for some inexplicable reason (presumably just the default of her worldview) associates this evil with late 20th century American liberal ideas about racism. I think this is more superficial to the books moral perspective, which is why the Malfoy redemption arc is quite easy to identify and why he and Slytherin house are acceptable in the end.
I've interacted with McManus and was less than impressed. It is evident to me that he's not particularly interested in truth at least not publicly. To me, he argued that America's economic growth was more owed to public schooling promoting literacy than market dynamics (literacy was seeded and spread in the Anglosphere by the Protestant Reformation), and also was attempting to make arguments about political economy predicated on the labor theory of value.
I feel like Twilight deserves mention as well. Also, didn't it have a little bit of a red state fan base? I definitely remember that being a thing. It'd be neat to know how that affected a bunch of North Dakota Bellas. Also, I think Hunger Games has a lot in common with right wing ideas of rebellion, specifically how easy it's supposed to be to show those effete snobs in the capital. I realize neither had anything like the staying power of Harry Potter, but I'd love to hear what you have to say on them.
The YA sewer is your best beat, Dave. I love all your commentary, but I save and rewatch/reread all your stuff on 2000's culture rot.
Seems to me everyone is walking away from the ending with one of two conclusions.
1. Dave is saying that dissidents need to move away from racial politics.
2. Dave is tacitly endorsing Slytherin's goals.
There's a rather telling youtube comment about how the based thing about House Elves is that they like being slaves. Option 2 seems to be what most of Dave's non-lurker followers see, or want to see, in Dave.
Personally I prefer option 1, but I don't think I can really tell which one he is actually going for, and this is what bugs me about the dissident right. Other than wingnats, no one wants to put all their cards on the table, because we all know there are a lot of visions on the right regarding race, and many of them would result in incompatible worlds doomed to fight each other. Lots of people want to talk about race realism, but not really say exactly what they think that is or what they want to do about it. Not because we're really worried about being censored, but because it's a scissor which creates a clear friend enemy distinction.
Frankly I think whichever way Dave leans his followers would be better served by him showing his hand a little less subtly.
I suspect but can't prove that Dave is really trying to say that he acknowledges the reasons people by into indentarian politics but that the old identies are dead and new ones will have to be forged. Having based minorities means having allies, not slaves. That the minorities aren't the Left's allies but their slaves. However, even if this is what Dave means or something similar, I doubt the "racepilled" sorts are usually capable of understanding this line of reasoning.
Hierarchical, i.e. non-egalitarian societies aren't neccesarily hierarchical in terms of race. And racial hierarchy wouldn't neccesarily have to be "under the law" to exist. Again, I don't think it's terribly clear exactly what he thinks about race. When the subject of antisemitism came up he basically said he couldn't share his thoughts on youtube but he also said the aggressively racial part of his audience might be critical of his thoughts, so another example of him not exactly being what the wingnats want him to be.
That said I'm not familiar with his complete catalogue of work, there is only so much time and I'm leery of being a political "consoomer"
I do agree that he offers much more concrete solutions that people realize just not on this matter.
To make a crass summary of your third part: those who are of Malfoys kin should commit to crossing the Red Sea, establish the laws of Leviticus to create a new proper culture, and prepare for a generational Desert Wandering until the people are ready to embrace to this new Order.
I think this analysis gives the "New Right" too much leeway and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. It is difficult to condemn liberals for failing to have solutions to modern problems and then end with a call for the "New Right" to develop solutions. If the New Right doesn't have solutions, what right do we have to criticize?
So let's use the example of African-American racial issues. I think it's fair to critique post-Obama liberals for not really having a solution. Obama wasn't everything MLK promised but it's very hard to square that achievement with widespread BLM riots more than a decade later in the liberal worldview. Fair enough. What's the New Right's solution?
Because I get the feeling there will be some general handwaving about a return to religion, return to the family, and I agree with the theory, but is any of it practical or actionable? There's no US Department of the Family, there's not really specific laws besides handwaving at divorce laws which would a....significant political challenge. There's definitely room for discussion of media and culture but...is anything actionable short of a radical change in the ownership structure of all media or a widespread religious revival? And, even given the most radical powers, bringing the entire US into the Catholic church, do you honestly feel this church, this pope, with this history, is in a position to credibly solve the social and spiritual ills of 300+ million people?
Because that's not the vibe I get. You're not ending on a note of having the right answers, your ending on a note of exploration, of experimentation, of preserving what's good of the past and mixing it with new innovations. If you're struggling to find answers, and I think we are, that's fine, but it's unfair to critique liberals for not having answers you or we ourselves don't have.
But the thing I'm most concerned about is you having a debate with McManus both laying out your positions and issues and then not really addressing the other's position. For example, I think it would be fair to say "Here are the three big concerns of the New Right, do liberals have any credible solution?" And I don't think they do and I think it's very worth holding that ground and pointing out that they have no solutions to what you value. But at some point, McManus gets to say "Here are the three big concerns of the liberals and/or left, does the New Right have any credible solution?" And if you and/or the New Right don't, your criticism falls kinda flat.
Sorry for the delay, and maybe I was unclear in my post, but this doesn't really answer the concern.
The Right and Dave are very concerned about the decline of family formation. Liberals and Leftists don't really have a solution to this. This is a fair criticism.
Liberals and Leftists are very concerned about equality of outcomes for racial groups. I don't see where the Right and Dave have solutions for this.
We've all got different values, different problems, and different proposed solutions. If you complain that the other side's proposed solutions don't address your problems, you need to be able to argue that your side's solutions at least somewhat address their problems. You can't argue that their values are basically wrong and they should change them because you wouldn't accept that from them.
And if it's just down to trying to change the other side's values, pure culture war, why the pretense of a liberal debate or discussion?
Equality of outcomes is not a desirable End state. That’s high entropy.
Not all values are equal either. I don’t particularly care if other people change their values. That’s on them. But again, it’s pretty clear what it takes to lead a good life.
Well I don't know about Dave, but the solution of any "Right" that deserves the name is simple: equality of any kind between different racial groups is impossible and undesirable because the different races are unequal, have always been unequal and (barring some massive miracle of eugenics) will always be unequal. Therefore the only solution is separation. Segregation if you like, which people of all races already practice (White people, including liberals, covertly and non-Whites overtly and unabashedly) anyway, since that's just human nature.
Happily, since the Balkanization of America and every Western former nation-state is inevitable, the question of persuading anyone to change their values (impossible in any event since values are determined by personality type, which like race, ethnicity, height, IQ, everything important is inherited and innate) is irrelevant. We're long past the talking phase, and even the shouting phase and well into the punching phase. The shooting phase is fast approaching or, depending on what kind of pattern significance you ascribe to the latest round of mass shootings/stochastic violence, has already begun. The only question is a) how soon it happens and b) how bloody it will be. The sooner it happens, the more overwhelming the advantage the erstwhile White majority will have, and hence the less bloody it will be. The later it happens, the more even the odds, and therefore the more bloody. Hence why it's in everyone's interests, non-Whites included, that it happen sooner rather than later.
"First, for the respected professional and academic set (needing to justify their own institutional power) modern progressivism became justified via technocratic performance and excellence towards serving people's needs while steering clear of troublesome teleological and essentialist concepts. The task was proper management and “best practices”, nothing to do with moral or spiritual identities relying on metaphysics that the 19th-century philosophers called into question.
Second, for the younger and more ideological set, in search of “meaning”, the left provided a revolutionary and identitarian formulation for itself. Progressivism was about fighting the evil of the old colonial order, tearing down systems of oppression, and uplifting the identity groups of marginalized peoples. And equality (or “equity”) would be achieved imminently through incremental reforms pursuing the endpoint of the broad Civil Rights movements. Leftism was core to establishing and vindicating one’s internal spiritual identity and giving one’s life narrative purpose. And both your identity and purpose WERE VALID."
Been a while since I read it, but the modern progressive reminds me of Hazel Motes in WiseBlood with his "Holy Church of Christ Without Christ,". You see this with Harry Potter, who love all the trappings of historical Britain while simultaneously wanting to tear it all down. It's like arguing a person will be more complete once we rip his pesky heart out of his body.
Great post and great to have you back Dave, hope all well. Summarises both Harry Potter and where we are in discourse with the left right now extremely well
With the exception of midwit libs and suburbanites, the public is losing faith in authority and institutions. So when your Professor resorts to arguments from authority he is remodeling a house on a foundation already destroyed.
Thank you for the post. My wife is a Harry Potter fan and it's sometikes important to serve these arguments in a way that's palatable to normie millenials.
"the imperative of love. Here, I don’t just mean love for each other and our families, but love for higher things, chief among them Truth, the virtue of sincere curiosity"
Is this conclusion not an endorsement of the Rowling perspective? Is it substantially different than "love conquers all?" HP is a woo-woo Boomer-ish take on Christianity with evil conceived of as Promethean ambition (immortality & absolute dominion). Rowling for some inexplicable reason (presumably just the default of her worldview) associates this evil with late 20th century American liberal ideas about racism. I think this is more superficial to the books moral perspective, which is why the Malfoy redemption arc is quite easy to identify and why he and Slytherin house are acceptable in the end.
I've interacted with McManus and was less than impressed. It is evident to me that he's not particularly interested in truth at least not publicly. To me, he argued that America's economic growth was more owed to public schooling promoting literacy than market dynamics (literacy was seeded and spread in the Anglosphere by the Protestant Reformation), and also was attempting to make arguments about political economy predicated on the labor theory of value.
I feel like Twilight deserves mention as well. Also, didn't it have a little bit of a red state fan base? I definitely remember that being a thing. It'd be neat to know how that affected a bunch of North Dakota Bellas. Also, I think Hunger Games has a lot in common with right wing ideas of rebellion, specifically how easy it's supposed to be to show those effete snobs in the capital. I realize neither had anything like the staying power of Harry Potter, but I'd love to hear what you have to say on them.
The YA sewer is your best beat, Dave. I love all your commentary, but I save and rewatch/reread all your stuff on 2000's culture rot.
Seems to me everyone is walking away from the ending with one of two conclusions.
1. Dave is saying that dissidents need to move away from racial politics.
2. Dave is tacitly endorsing Slytherin's goals.
There's a rather telling youtube comment about how the based thing about House Elves is that they like being slaves. Option 2 seems to be what most of Dave's non-lurker followers see, or want to see, in Dave.
Personally I prefer option 1, but I don't think I can really tell which one he is actually going for, and this is what bugs me about the dissident right. Other than wingnats, no one wants to put all their cards on the table, because we all know there are a lot of visions on the right regarding race, and many of them would result in incompatible worlds doomed to fight each other. Lots of people want to talk about race realism, but not really say exactly what they think that is or what they want to do about it. Not because we're really worried about being censored, but because it's a scissor which creates a clear friend enemy distinction.
Frankly I think whichever way Dave leans his followers would be better served by him showing his hand a little less subtly.
I suspect but can't prove that Dave is really trying to say that he acknowledges the reasons people by into indentarian politics but that the old identies are dead and new ones will have to be forged. Having based minorities means having allies, not slaves. That the minorities aren't the Left's allies but their slaves. However, even if this is what Dave means or something similar, I doubt the "racepilled" sorts are usually capable of understanding this line of reasoning.
He's been pretty clear on "freedom of association" and the likely failures of egalitarianism...
Hierarchical, i.e. non-egalitarian societies aren't neccesarily hierarchical in terms of race. And racial hierarchy wouldn't neccesarily have to be "under the law" to exist. Again, I don't think it's terribly clear exactly what he thinks about race. When the subject of antisemitism came up he basically said he couldn't share his thoughts on youtube but he also said the aggressively racial part of his audience might be critical of his thoughts, so another example of him not exactly being what the wingnats want him to be.
That said I'm not familiar with his complete catalogue of work, there is only so much time and I'm leery of being a political "consoomer"
I do agree that he offers much more concrete solutions that people realize just not on this matter.
Thank-you! This provides a clear analysis of our time and points to a realistic path forward. Hopeful. I'll be sharing this.
This was the most intellectually-stimulating thing I've read in a fair while. Thank you.
To make a crass summary of your third part: those who are of Malfoys kin should commit to crossing the Red Sea, establish the laws of Leviticus to create a new proper culture, and prepare for a generational Desert Wandering until the people are ready to embrace to this new Order.
I think this analysis gives the "New Right" too much leeway and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. It is difficult to condemn liberals for failing to have solutions to modern problems and then end with a call for the "New Right" to develop solutions. If the New Right doesn't have solutions, what right do we have to criticize?
So let's use the example of African-American racial issues. I think it's fair to critique post-Obama liberals for not really having a solution. Obama wasn't everything MLK promised but it's very hard to square that achievement with widespread BLM riots more than a decade later in the liberal worldview. Fair enough. What's the New Right's solution?
Because I get the feeling there will be some general handwaving about a return to religion, return to the family, and I agree with the theory, but is any of it practical or actionable? There's no US Department of the Family, there's not really specific laws besides handwaving at divorce laws which would a....significant political challenge. There's definitely room for discussion of media and culture but...is anything actionable short of a radical change in the ownership structure of all media or a widespread religious revival? And, even given the most radical powers, bringing the entire US into the Catholic church, do you honestly feel this church, this pope, with this history, is in a position to credibly solve the social and spiritual ills of 300+ million people?
Because that's not the vibe I get. You're not ending on a note of having the right answers, your ending on a note of exploration, of experimentation, of preserving what's good of the past and mixing it with new innovations. If you're struggling to find answers, and I think we are, that's fine, but it's unfair to critique liberals for not having answers you or we ourselves don't have.
But the thing I'm most concerned about is you having a debate with McManus both laying out your positions and issues and then not really addressing the other's position. For example, I think it would be fair to say "Here are the three big concerns of the New Right, do liberals have any credible solution?" And I don't think they do and I think it's very worth holding that ground and pointing out that they have no solutions to what you value. But at some point, McManus gets to say "Here are the three big concerns of the liberals and/or left, does the New Right have any credible solution?" And if you and/or the New Right don't, your criticism falls kinda flat.
I think he has made the attempts to do just that
https://youtu.be/UkEwHQTv9IY
I'll add that the solutions are very clear and straightforward...
Sorry for the delay, and maybe I was unclear in my post, but this doesn't really answer the concern.
The Right and Dave are very concerned about the decline of family formation. Liberals and Leftists don't really have a solution to this. This is a fair criticism.
Liberals and Leftists are very concerned about equality of outcomes for racial groups. I don't see where the Right and Dave have solutions for this.
We've all got different values, different problems, and different proposed solutions. If you complain that the other side's proposed solutions don't address your problems, you need to be able to argue that your side's solutions at least somewhat address their problems. You can't argue that their values are basically wrong and they should change them because you wouldn't accept that from them.
And if it's just down to trying to change the other side's values, pure culture war, why the pretense of a liberal debate or discussion?
Equality of outcomes is not a desirable End state. That’s high entropy.
Not all values are equal either. I don’t particularly care if other people change their values. That’s on them. But again, it’s pretty clear what it takes to lead a good life.
Well I don't know about Dave, but the solution of any "Right" that deserves the name is simple: equality of any kind between different racial groups is impossible and undesirable because the different races are unequal, have always been unequal and (barring some massive miracle of eugenics) will always be unequal. Therefore the only solution is separation. Segregation if you like, which people of all races already practice (White people, including liberals, covertly and non-Whites overtly and unabashedly) anyway, since that's just human nature.
Happily, since the Balkanization of America and every Western former nation-state is inevitable, the question of persuading anyone to change their values (impossible in any event since values are determined by personality type, which like race, ethnicity, height, IQ, everything important is inherited and innate) is irrelevant. We're long past the talking phase, and even the shouting phase and well into the punching phase. The shooting phase is fast approaching or, depending on what kind of pattern significance you ascribe to the latest round of mass shootings/stochastic violence, has already begun. The only question is a) how soon it happens and b) how bloody it will be. The sooner it happens, the more overwhelming the advantage the erstwhile White majority will have, and hence the less bloody it will be. The later it happens, the more even the odds, and therefore the more bloody. Hence why it's in everyone's interests, non-Whites included, that it happen sooner rather than later.
Isnt this his explanation of the transition?
"First, for the respected professional and academic set (needing to justify their own institutional power) modern progressivism became justified via technocratic performance and excellence towards serving people's needs while steering clear of troublesome teleological and essentialist concepts. The task was proper management and “best practices”, nothing to do with moral or spiritual identities relying on metaphysics that the 19th-century philosophers called into question.
Second, for the younger and more ideological set, in search of “meaning”, the left provided a revolutionary and identitarian formulation for itself. Progressivism was about fighting the evil of the old colonial order, tearing down systems of oppression, and uplifting the identity groups of marginalized peoples. And equality (or “equity”) would be achieved imminently through incremental reforms pursuing the endpoint of the broad Civil Rights movements. Leftism was core to establishing and vindicating one’s internal spiritual identity and giving one’s life narrative purpose. And both your identity and purpose WERE VALID."